Criminal defense attorney Bill Brennan, who previously represented former President Donald Trump, and former federal prosecutor Shan Wu on Thursday sparred over whether Michael Cohen is a bad witness.

Cohen faced cross-examination again on Thursday, with even CNN pundits questioning whether the jury will buy the admitted liar’s testimony as the star witness appeared to falter. Brennan challenged Wu to name a worse witness than Cohen, whose credibility has come under significant scrutiny because of his multiple admissions of lying under oath.

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“From a jury standpoint, one thing to remember too, the extent you see Cohen leaning back in the chair or thinking to himself, you know, ‘I’m not really sure.’ That’s actually not the hallmark of a pathological liar, a pathological liar doesn’t reconsider the accuracy,” Wu said. “They just like totally lean into it. That may actually have the opposite effect on the jury. They may think he‘s actually thinking carefully. He is trying to be accurate.”

“The jury might take years and years and years of documented lies. He lies, he lies about the lies he told he lies some more, and because he leans back in his chair and Blanche yells at him, they may say, oh, we’re going to wipe that away?” Brennan asked Wu. “I don‘t think so.”

Wu responded he was not referring to Blanche’s yelling leading to the jury trusting Cohen, but that it is “silly” to describe Cohen as “the worst witness ever.”

“The worst liar ever, Shan,” Brennan retorted, to which Wu said was “even sillier” and posited that “an enforcer from the mob who’s killed people” would be a worse liar than Cohen.

“Let’s use that. Sammy Gravano … killed 19 people but he wasn’t a liar … This guy is a lying liar who just lies about everything he says. And credibility is the currency of a jury trial, and people don’t like to be conned,” Brennan said. “He could lean back in his chair, he can sit straight in his chair. Blanche can whisper, Blanche can yell, but those lies can’t be denied.”

Keith Davidson, who formerly represented porn star Stormy Daniels and was a prosecution witness, testified that Cohen desired a role in Trump’s White House and that he believed Cohen was going to “kill himself” due to not receiving a position. However, Cohen testified on Thursday that he did not actually want a position.

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